Interview with Sensei Perry – 9^th September 2001 by Kirsten Warby

Tell me a little about your history.  Why did you start karate and what did you do in your formative years within karate?

I started in the UK and I must have been about 17.  I saw a demonstration with John van Weenan who had just come back from Japan.  He had gone out there with Eddie Whitcher.  He and his brother gave a demonstration at Watford and I liked the look of it so much that I joined.  I trained there for a few months and then I saw Kanazawa Sensei at Crystal Palace.  He took a shine to me and took me under his wing.  I thought the beauty of his movement was so marvellous that I followed Kanazawa Sensei from there on.  I trained here for about 18 months then the whole of Watford karate club went to Australia.  We met up out there, trained out there, then we split up and two of us trained on our own.

What grade were you by this point?

Just about brown belt – purple belt, I think.  Then I got called up for Vietnam. I came back just after that and I trained here running some clubs for John van Weenan.  Kanazawa Sensei was living in Germany so he was popping backwards and forwards.  I trained through the Dan grades for two or three years and then went back to Australia where I was going to open some clubs for Kanazawa Sensei in the SKI.  That never came off because they weren’t of a suitable nature out there really – there weren’t enough people to train hard.  I left Australia, and went to Japan to train with Sensei Kanazawa. We left Japan after we had been out there several weeks training.  I came back to England for the Summer Courses where he was teaching then I just carried on training and teaching in England after that.  I was teaching for the SKI, then gradually I worked through to where I am now.

If you had for some reason given up karate, what do think you would be doing now?

I don’t know – I wouldn’t have a clue!

Did you not have any leanings towards anything at school?  What did you want to be?

I never wanted to be anything.  I was going to be a farmer – I started off on a sty.  Then I was a civil engineer; to earn money while I was training and studying I worked on buildings, but I didn’t really have any leanings for anything.  If something happened now, I would stay with karate, but more the healing side of it, helping people and the lifestyle side of things – the corporate side of training.  I would be adjusting peoples lives and looking at how they run their lives and what to do to make them better.  I would try to enhance their lives.  You don’t need to actually do karate training for as such, but I could teach them unless it was a terrible injury that had stopped me.  I think I would go to the medical side.

What do you feel you have contributed most to karate?

What do I feel I have contributed?  Not much!

You have!  You have reached people in New Zealand and India who have never met you…

Well, I suppose if I’ve done anything in karate, what I perhaps have done is made people more aware of how their bodies.  I show how the bio-mechanical system works, so they can actually train with power and speed without injuring themselves, and therefore have a better outcome. 

If there were something you could change from your past, what would it be?  Any regrets?

No, no I was perfect! (laughs) I wouldn’t change things in the past, some things you have to go thorough.  I’m lucky to have survived, so no.

What has been your proudest moment in karate?

Seeing people who find things very difficult achieve them, without a doubt.  Or seeing people who I know have been seriously ill, and some of my students have been very seriously ill, make a full recovery and no trace of the illness.  They are now healthy people.  On the corporate side of things, I do more hands-on training and therefore use karate movements to help holistically.  There are special illnesses that people get that you can cure through certain movements.  It takes time, but you can cure that.  So my proudest moments are seeing people recover from illnesses or do things they couldn’t do. 

What is the hardest thing to teach students in karate at the moment?

To be able to see.

Can you explain?

Most students look, but they don’t see.  They only see the superficial and they find it very difficult to look deeper.  They haven’t got the way-with-all to actually study hard or they misunderstand the word “hard”.  “Hard” training doesn’t mean just marching up and down, it means really studying their own body, going into it and confronting your own fears and the things that come out of that.  You can then really understand how you can work – you can make yourself better.  It takes time, because neurologically, you can’t do that.  That’s the hardest thing. 

Do you think that’s a by-product of how society is changing now, with the lack of discipline and the lack of respect?

I think all that’s part of it.  In Jin Sei Kai particularly I don’t think that’s such a worry, but it’s still difficult to get people to see the deeper level.  It takes a long time neurologically, and people sometimes don’t want to train that hard in that way or they can’t see what the outcome is going to be.  The outcome will be much more dramatic.

What has been the hardest thing for you to learn in karate and was there a point where you felt like giving up because of it?  As a result of overcoming it, what advice would you give others about how to approach a seemingly impossible task?

Right back in the early days, it was tough training with people really really suffering.  It used to be really tough to go training.  The Japanese used to be very hard on us.  The whole training system was hard so sometimes in the early days it was like doing a stamina class every single day…but with a lot of blood.  Sometimes then it was hard.  Sometimes then you felt that you couldn’t go again, you felt that you couldn’t take anymore pain.

Were you scared?

I suppose we all were scared a little bit.  Every time you went training, somebody would be injured.  It didn’t bother us that much, because it’s just like a journey.  Taking the first footsteps and you’ve just got to keep plodding along and gradually everything gets better.  Keep your head down and keep going.  These days we don’t train like that anymore, so all techniques will come to those who train hard enough in the techniques, and want to look into them as I said earlier.  Things are better now.  I think if people study, they will get through those barriers.  Like our Gasshuku – some of the hardest things are not actually in the dojo; they’re outside the dojo.  Karate is not just about training up and down in the dojo; it’s about living life. 

What first got you interested in specifically karate as a martial art?

I studied yoga at the time but there weren’t really any martial arts in the country then. 

What year would this have been?

Well, there was actually martial arts in the country but nobody had every heard of it.  So this would be about ’67.  Hardly anybody had seen martial arts.  For me, to see Kanazawa Sensei move so balletically, and powerfully…that had a great affect.  I like ballet as well.  To see karate and ballet together was absolutely wonderful.  Plus the power in it and the fighting systems attracted me, because when I started if you kicked somebody you were a kick donkey!  To see people who could jump over your head and kick you, and kick so fast you couldn’t even see what they did was fantastic.  That’s what got us all interested when we were young men.

It’s hard for us to imagine you as a beginner, but since you started karate what major changes have you seen in the style & training of Shotokan?

Well, the biggest problem is most of Shotokan how it is, the traditional way, hasn’t changed.  That’s a problem because they haven’t developed.  They’re still doing bad things that they should put right.  In Jin Sei Kai we’ve moved forward because we’re much more technical, more powerful, and have more understanding of movement.  I’m really pleased with all the people in Jin Sei Kai.  Outside Jin Sei Kai, I still see people not following Kanazawa, for example, and doing really bad techniques.  They’re not listening to what he says; they’re not seeing what he does.  They’re just doing the JKA type of training.  But actually, some of the JKA masters that I used to train with years ago in Japan, didn’t train the same way as they train in Europe.  The European type of training, with our limbs and systems, that has developed is not good.  The other side of it is that it has become totally wishy-washy with no tradition.  There is no understanding of movement, kata or application -  or what they’re actually trying to achieve.  That’s a bit soul-destroying when you see all these potential people going to all these clubs.  It’s not always the instructor’s fault – it’s their teacher’s as well.  They’re broken away and fragmented down so they do a kata and they don’t actually know what the application to the kata is.  They don’t understand the meaning of it and they change it because it may be difficult.  That kata then gets lost.  The whole thing breaks down and there’s no understanding of why we do things.  Sometimes we have to do things that are quite cruel and nasty to people to help make them good people.  We try to make the good come out of them – to make them see themselves, or to help them.  All this side of things is going altogether.

What do you do to relax when you’re not teaching or training?  Do you have any other hobbies apart from karate?

I windsurf, mountain-bike, swim. I like to go to the gym and train and I also watch TV.

Any favourite programmes?

Windsurfing tapes!

So do we not phone you when EastEnders is on?

Oh God no, I turn that off!  I like watching motor racing, but only if it’s not a sunny day.

In which order were the katas invented?  Will anyone ever create a new kata?

I don’t know which order they were invented in - that was before my time!  The Heians were brought about by Gichin Funakoshi to make it easier to train because the katas were too long.  He managed a more simplistic system.  There were even more simple katas but they were done in a little star shape.  There were for stance training.  Gichin Funokoshi brought it to Japan and taught the Navy and then the Universities.  Loads of people invent new katas all the time.  I’m not saying they’re any good, just people jumping around doing their own thing.  There are so many katas out there that have got real deep meaning in them so there’s no meaning to inventing new ones, I don’t think.  We’ve got more than enough for one lifetime as far as I’m concerned!

In your opinion, what is the best age to start karate and why?

There is no good age to start karate – you can start at any age.  It’s not for doing anything other than just giving you a good lifestyle.  I think this is the best way of making you a whole person, and confront all the problems you have.  Train until you have got no more problems, then you just have new problems.  These you can get rid of easier. 

You spent some time training in Japan.  How does modern day training differ to training in Japan?

I think they train more or less the same as they used to.  As far as I’m concerned, Jin Sei Kai has probably got a better standard than Japan.  Jin Sei Kai has always aimed for the same standard as Japan and that’s why all the Japanese instructors that have come over have liked training at Jin Sei Kai.  They felt that it was the same, especially the 3r^d Dan grading system.  Our system is the same as theirs.  It’s one of the only clubs I know that has a similar system.  We’re more sensible, maybe.  We don’t let them smash each other’s teeth out, just nearly to that point. 

So do other karate styles and clubs not have the same Dan grading system as us?

No, except the JKA and SKI Dan grading systems.  Kasuya used to come over with Kanazawa Sensei – he was his second in command – he used to say, “Jin Sei Kai and Japan is exactly the same grading”.  No different.  When he went to other Dojos he didn’t like the fact that they’ve got a large number of 3^rd Dans and Jin Sei Kai didn’t have many 3^rd Dans.  He said that’s how it should be – the other Dojos didn’t go through the same rigours.  It’s got to be tough.  It’s supposed to be you going out into the world and you’ve got to come to terms with all the problems you’ve got.  You may be frightened of things, or you’re bigheaded, you lose your temper or whatever.  They are all disguised as fear factors.  You can come to terms with all those.  We do it up to a point – as far as we can.  We keep it as safe as possible, but still achieve the same goal.  That person can then go away and say that they’ve done that in their life and nobody can take that away. 

In your opinion, do you feel that it is correct to choose a martial art that fits in with the student’s physical abilities rather than trying to change the person to fit the particular style? 

Anybody can be suited to karate, or kung fu, or whatever.  It’s just the whole aspect of it.  It wouldn’t be suitable for somebody to do kickboxing if they were not flexible because kickboxing is not a martial art as such.  In the same fashion, it’s more a fighting system for an end, like boxing.  But a true martial arts system shouldn’t have any boundaries.  You can train in a wheelchair, which we have done; we have had students in wheelchairs.  We organise the katas and movements for them.  Blind people, deaf people, all sorts of people.  We have had people training with only one arm and we’ve had people training with artificial legs. 

That reminds of Sensei Kanazawa when he won that competition with a broken wrist.

That’s right.  If you just keep training, you just adapt the training to suit the person.  You try and bring that person on.  There are no boundaries.  Obviously, if a psychopath were taught some sort of kick-boxing and went out without any discipline they could go on to be a problem.  There is no discipline here in the West as there is perhaps in Thailand or Japan.  Or if someone with arthritic hips tried kick-boxing, again, it wouldn’t be very good for them.  But someone with arthritic hips doing karate – they could do the punching movements and some of the movements with their legs.  That would release the stress and problems in the lower half of the body.    

Did you every want to do any other martial art, like kung fu?

Actually, they are all the same, so it doesn’t make any difference!  If you study all of our katas, they all came through from China, so our basis is in kung fu anyway.  I’m also a Ching Wu world instructor so I can see the similarities.  If you take karate to it’s ultimate goal and look at the Shaolin Temple type of training; their training and basics are similar to our basic training.  That is where we get our basic training from.  That is what Gichin Funakoshi started doing, he was making longer stances to improve our strength and so forth.  The stances are just variations of the original kung fu ones and have gone through the changes.  If you watch the old forms, they have all the same relaxed flowing movements.  We’ve made the katas slightly more dynamic to make them more powerful, but if you then add flowing movements to your dynamic powerful movements, you can get very powerful flowing movements. 

Are we better equipped with our stances than kung fu artists?  The traditional kung fu stances seem very low – does that give knee problems?

They don’t train like that all the time – that’s the beginning training systems for them.  A lot of the time they are standing more upright.  However, there are certain styles where they are train low most of the time.  When I am teaching in students abroad, in some of the Oriental countries, their knee-joints and attachments are slightly lower than ours, generically.  When I am teaching, I am often trying to get their knees in the right position, so when they do jumps they don’t land with their knees and legs sticking out in all different directions.

Are they more flexible than we are?

Not really.  I think some of the people in hotter countries could be more flexible. 

Is it because they are more likely to be starting younger than us?

Yes – that’s right.  But the older people, say mid-twenties and on, they have flexibility similar to ours.  If you started young here and was put through that regime, you’d be doing back flips. 

Do you enjoy watching martial arts movies or are you too tempted to pick the various techniques and unlikely situations to pieces?

I like watching the different movies but I do have a laugh at the techniques! 

Any favourites?  I know we’ve discussed Jackie Chan & Bruce Lee before…

I don’t have any favourites.  The movements are all choreographed.  I like seeing the choreographed sequences and seeing what they the artist can do.  If you go to China, they have a championship, which is based on film fight choreography. They choreograph a fight scene and then it is judged.  It’s a choreographed scene that they do together – much like a Gi Jiyu Ippon.  I find those interesting – I like the acrobatic side of it.  Those sorts of things are good.  If you are actually teaching an actor to fight in a movie, it’s no good training like we do because it doesn’t come out well on the movie.  The speed doesn’t come across and you can’t catch it.  If you do a straight fast punch then stop and pull back, the camera will catch that.  Yet if you whiz your hand across the front of the lens, it won’t catch that and it looks much faster.  Yet the second punch is weaker and not as well balanced.  It just works better on camera.  You have to do certain things certain ways if you’re going to make a nice film.  I like looking at those, they’re good fun. 

You’ve trained with so many people around the world, both in and outside the organisation.  Have you met anyone better than you in skill and ability, and if so, how did you feel about it?   

I think everybody’s got the potential of being better than me in Jin Sei Kai because I’ve been through all the rigours. I’m sorting out all the problems and I’m passing the knowledge on unconditionally.  I’ve done the donkeywork!  It’s all there for you to pick up. There is a Buddhist saying “the master should always be rewarded if a student overtakes him”.  It doesn’t mean that they may be better physically in certain things, it means that if I teach the students properly, it will encourage the seed to grow in them to make them the person that they should be.  They might become a pilot or a brain surgeon, or a healer, or something that’s completely way off beat to what they are doing now in life.  They would then overtake me.  I can’t do certain things that other instructors can do, like healing and lots of things.  It’s finding that special thing in that person, through the training I’ve done.  They can find their special talent if they train hard enough and look deep enough into themselves.  They can then overtake me.  They’ve all got the potential to do that.  I think everybody’s got a special thing.  Everybody’s got something special. 

What’s yours?

Mine?  I don’t know!  Perhaps just teaching, I suppose.  Trying to get certain points across to people. 

Can you spot people’s gift fairly early on, like red-belt type of level or does it take years of knowing and working with that person?

I can see if they’ve got potential at movement but it takes a while for the person to grow.  Actually, if I touch people I have various gifts to see what’s going on inside them.  I can see what fears they have and can then be able to bring the fears out of them.  I did some training with somebody and they were frightened of drowning.  Something had happened to them in the past, and I could see the picture of their problem.  When I spoke to them about it, they couldn’t believe it, but they said yes, that’s exactly what happened.  They can change their life around after that.  The fear comes to surface like a bubble and pops. They can then go forward and develop into all sorts of things. 

Do you think you’ve always had that gift, or do you think it’s been developed through your training and spirituality?

No, I think it’s probably been developed.  Obviously, I have a gift but it’s buried.  Everybody’s got a gift that’s buried.  It’s buried in karmic law, if you like.  We have to uncover our gift so you have to have a teacher to draw it out of you.  When it’s drawn out from within you, you can go forward.  We need to look inside ourselves to understand what holds us back to be able to go forwards. 

How do you cope with the disappointment of a student whom you’ve put hours of yourself into teaching suddenly leaving or losing interest?

That’s just part of life.  It’s not my problem – I can give them what I can but it’s up to them to take it up.  It’s their karma; it’s their personality to see that they continue with it.  If they can’t, then that’s their problem.  I’m sad that they’ve left, it’s a shame, but you can’t change people.  You can’t control them by threatening them or bribing them.  They’ve got to want to do it themselves.  I can only teach people a certain way so they can be themselves.  If they want to be themselves in a different direction, then that’s up to them. 

On several occasions, you have mentioned that fewer people are doing martial arts in general.  Do you ever see a future where all the different styles will become one uniform style and would this promote martial arts further?

No.  It would never happen.  First of all you’d never get anything like a single style.  There are certain facets.  For instance, if you were in a wheelchair or had one leg, Thai boxing wouldn’t be the style for you.  Neither would perhaps some of the moves in Kung Fu where they are jumping Tobi Geri’s.  It’s good to have different styles.  Some people are interested in competition.  Ticky Donovan teaches a traditional vein through his training, and then concentrates that vein onto competition.  Out of those people that train that way, some of them might turn to kata later on more seriously and then develop in that way.  Or maybe just develop as a better person through doing that.  However if they came into a club doing kata and controlled things with no freestyle perhaps, or no competition to win a cup or a medal, they might get bored and go away.  So certain styles obviously help certain people.  The different styles never have been altogether.  As far back as the Buddha’s time, if records went back that far, they wouldn’t be together then.  There would be different people teaching different styles.  That’s the way it was, and the way it always will be.  You’ve got to try and develop the style the right way. 

Thank you Sensei Perry, for your time to do this interview.

Thank you.

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